Living with Balance and Planning to Die Well with Apryl Schlueter – SMJ 009

You're About to Learn …

• Why retirement can feel like shame instead of freedom.
• The story behind Joel's skimpy walk that summoned the police.
• Why regularly thinking about death can make you live better.
• How letting go of planning can actually simplify your life.
• Why Apryl's “smiling-to-talking ratio” says more than words do.

Hear It Here

Podcast (surprise-me-joel): Play in new window | Download

Subscribe Now and Never Miss an Episode: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Youtube Music | RSS | More

Resources and Items Mentioned in This Episode

Resources

• Swedish Death Cleaning
• Apryl's Book, Finding Success in Balance

Other

• Kiniki (my tan-through skimpy shorts)

Where to Find Apryl Schlueter Online

• LinkedIn
• The Cheerful Mind
• Instagram

Timestamps and Topics

• [00:01:24] Why might retirement feel like shame instead of hard-won freedom?
• [00:10:17] Rethinking retirement for the first time at 46.
• [00:17:02] The barely-there outfit that got Joel a police visit.
• [00:24:55] Thinking about dying daily.
• [00:30:43] Swedish death cleaning: clearing your digital life before anyone has to.
• [00:41:31] The tattoo reminding April that balance is a moving target.
• [00:45:13] Two very different books – one source of pride, one of embarrassment.
• [00:52:01] The smiling-to-talking ratio: a compliment worth remembering.
• [00:56:42] Why Joel ditched the editing tools and handcrafted this episode instead.

Awesome Ways to Subscribe to the Show

Transcript

Joel: Welcome, Apryl. Shall we wander in conversation together?

Apryl: I love it. Let's do it. I am so ready for this, and I have needed some good conversations. So let's go.

Joel: Why? Start with that – you've needed some good conversations? You know a lot of amazing humans. I have trouble believing there's a dearth of cool conversations in your life, but I'm wrong.

Apryl: I do have so many good conversations. I think this year in particular I've been so focused on work, and a lot of my work is talk. So there are good conversations, but my social life has definitely taken a hit, and I consider you one of my dear friends.

Apryl: That's why when I actually have the time to sit and chat with a friend, I take it as much as possible – to have a conversation with you, to connect, and also to give people something they can take away from this conversation, which is a surprise to both you and me.

Joel: Oh, really? I'm not the only one with surprises on Surprise Me, Joel, huh? That's fair, I like that – the topic is surprise. We're going to see where that goes. I just made that up right now, because, you know, surprise.

Joel: I didn't want to come with a plan, so we'll improvise a little bit.

Apryl: Way to stick with the theme. I definitely think of you and improvise in the same sentence, whether it's improv comedy, improv dance, or improv anything.

Joel: That's one of many, many things I know about you. And as my multipotentialite friend, there are many different facets and places we could go – you mentioned pivoting, tilting, maybe other words you'd use for the businessy, work stuff this year.

Joel: We spoke, I don't know, eight-ish months ago. So the mental picture I have of you may be horribly out of date – maybe you can update me in real time. Why this year? Is it a reflection of your children getting old enough that you have less responsibility in the mom role, or what is it that makes you say, “I'm going to thrust myself more into this than I have in the past”?

Apryl: A little bit. With my kids being older – my oldest is an incoming senior in high school, my younger one's a sophomore – I've been working hard to slowly let go of the grip of trying not to be a helicopter mom.

Apryl: Last year was the first year my sons were driving themselves to school, and I thought, what am I going to do with these extra two hours a day?

Apryl: So I felt this opportunity to really dig into some things I was working on in my business, and I was super excited.

Apryl: And it's funny – as this year has gone on, work has really picked up. It's almost like I opened the doors and the floodgates went, “You want to do more work? Let's give you more.”

Joel: Right on – there's your double high five for that.

Apryl: So maybe the point is I couldn't keep up with myself. But it's all good.

Apryl: I think about what's transpired in the last eight months since we last chatted. I did launch a podcast last year, and I was super, super excited. I also work with some other companies, so I've had new projects and new clients come on board, which means I have a lot on my plate, but it's all different stuff.

Apryl: As a multipotentialite would, I'm doing consulting for one client, coaching for another company, and then I have my own coaching clients, and I run my own community. I've also been working on this podcast, which is linked to a book – I've got a lot of my hands in the fire.

Apryl: In the last eight months I also hired someone to help me with marketing. As much as I want to put out good content – and I learned this from running the podcast – when I edit something I'm very meticulous about it, to the point that it slows down the entire process, but I'm not willing to give that up.

Apryl: When it comes to social media and other marketing, or even just sharing what I'm doing, I can get very overwhelmed with my own work. So having somebody who's looking out for me – asking, what do you want to talk about? – has been a mix of sharing what's going on in my life and what I'm doing in work. Bringing somebody on board for that partnership has been so fun, but it's also more work than I had last year, so I kind of overdid it.

Apryl: I really like what I'm doing, though. And then I have other volunteer work – I've been very active in the choir theater patron organization for our high school, and I recently took on the role of treasurer, so now I'm diving into money and spreadsheets and all that. I'm just doing a lot of stuff and trying not to lose my cool or hit burnout.

Apryl: But my most important role is being a parent and a mom, making sure my kid knows what he needs to do to get himself into college. That's a journey in itself – navigating the emotions of my kid leaving soon.

Apryl: That started in May, with the last choir banquet, or the second-to-last spring concert, or the last variety show – waterworks. So there's this emotional draw that's slowing me down, because I really want to be present for my kids, but I also really want to work.

Apryl: We're a little over halfway through the year now, and I'm at this place where I said I wanted to really focus on work, but I think I need to put the brakes on a little bit. I actually took a pause in the middle of a two-part podcast episode – I've released only one episode this year so far, because I don't want to put it out if I'm not ready and feeling good about it.

Apryl: So, yeah, lots of things are going on, and I've been pretty quiet, which is also why I'm so excited to talk to you – I haven't been socializing much because I've been trying to keep my head above water a little bit. Not a lot of people know that's happening unless they talk to me on a weekly basis.

Joel: You mentioned about twelve things – do any of them feel particularly alive for you? Is there a facet of your life, or a role you're evolving into, or something you're just so stoked to do, where you're like, “Joel, finally, we can talk about this”? Anything from that buffet you want to drill into?

Apryl: This is crazy, and it's going to be completely left of center.

Joel: Do it.

Apryl: I'll bring it up, because I mentioned this before we started recording – I've been thinking about retirement in a way I never have before. First things first, my husband has always had this goal to retire as close to fifty as possible, and we're forty-six right now, so that's not too far off. It doesn't even seem real, because we still haven't paid a college bill or anything like that.

Apryl: Him talking about that made me think – what is all this work for? I've had people I interact with through my work projects talk about retirement and almost feel shame about it, like, “I'm retiring, and I don't want to feel like I'm not doing anything, I need to find new purpose” – as if there's a negative connotation to retirement. And I'm like, isn't that what we're working toward – being able to do the work so we can enjoy life and not–

Joel: Not be focused on making money.

Apryl: Money – maybe not work, because people's version of work is very different. But yeah, I know what you're saying. I went to Las Vegas with a bunch of my college friends – some of us hadn't been together in maybe fourteen years, and we're all in our mid-forties, talking about all the older-people stuff, and retirement was a conversation.

Apryl: I started thinking about the fact that, as much as I love to work, the idea of my husband being retired and golfing every day while I'm working like crazy – I don't know if I'd like that. I think I'd be resentful. So for the first time in my life – and I've always been the person who says, “I'm just going to work till I die” – I feel like I don't want that anymore. It's been almost like a second midlife crisis, but it's not.

Apryl: It's really giving me pause to think about what retirement looks like for me, because it was just never something I thought about.

Joel: So have you had any thoughts about it? Do you have even a fuzzy vision of a day in the life, or a week in the life, of retired Apryl?

Apryl: I don't know yet. I think there are aspects of my work I'd potentially stop doing, but I also feel like if I cut everything, I'd have no purpose – I truly enjoy this. So I've been trying to figure out what would be the most fun aspects of the work I'm doing, and right now the things that light me up most are the online community I run and the podcast – even though it's on a bit of a hiatus. It's interesting that the work I'm most excited about is the stuff that's kind of been put on a shelf, and I realize that's what I need to be prioritizing.

Apryl: I'm still trying to figure out how to make that work. I've always had the fortunate opportunity to do work that I enjoy, so it's about making sure that whatever rest looks like, I swap it out for other work that's also fun. I love everything I do, but I also can't rest like this – definitely not. So I have to figure out how to make room for travel and everything else; it just has to be replaced at some point.

Apryl: So maybe I'm a little in denial. It's a really interesting concept I need to sit with a little more. But what are your thoughts on retirement, by the way? I need help making decisions – I love hearing other people's perspectives, and we're kind of around the same age.

Joel: Yeah, I'm forty-six.

Apryl: What are your thoughts on it?

Joel: Well, I joke with people that I've been semi-retired for fourteen years, which isn't really a joke – that word, retirement, isn't quite right for me. The fact that I don't work full time, and haven't for fourteen years since I quit my corporate gig, has been very intentional. And fortunately – super fortunately – Melinda has supported me through all of that; she's been pulling the financial weight in our family significantly, and I haven't contributed much in that way.

Joel: So I think about it as repurposing. We have the same amount of time every day, and as my children have aged – my boys are a little younger than Justin and Ryan's, Grant's fifteen, Clark's twelve – my role and responsibility toward them has shifted. Back in 2012, when I quit corporate America, it looked very different: I was a part-time papa, a part-time neighbor, a part-time number of things.

Joel: It's weird that we even use that language, “part time” – that's a very work-like framing. The word retirement carries that same juxtaposition, that contrast between work-me and income-generating-me and now-not-that-me. For me, it's about figuring out where I can be of value to others, where I can find fulfillment, and how I can express myself in ways that feel true and good – and hopefully are somewhat socially acceptable.

Joel: Somewhat, because I do a lot of really weird stuff.

Apryl: But that's what we all love about you – it's super fun.

Joel: Yes. I'll say this: I was out for a walk this afternoon, barefoot, bare-chested, basically wearing the male equivalent of a Speedo – swim trunks called a Kiniki that have these tiny, microscopic holes that let ultraviolet light penetrate through, so you actually get sunlight on your skin. It's essentially an optical illusion – I'm basically walking around naked in my neighborhood.

Apryl: I love it.

Joel: I've done this maybe ten times or so over the summer. I just got these – and someone called the cops on me.

Apryl: Oh my.

Joel: I was walking up a side street, and there were two police officers waiting for me – I could tell. I walked up to them and said, “Hey, what's up?” Because from my perspective, I'm just the weirdo in the neighborhood, essentially walking around naked. But I'm not naked – you can't see my junk, I'm wearing something.

Joel: It's that kind of thing where, if work-Joel was still around – if I had a reputation that required me to make money, especially around the neighborhood or in the community – I don't know if I'd do something like that. So there's this version of you that doesn't care about money or the reputation tied to needing to make it. I live a very different life as a result, and that weird story is just one instance of that.

Apryl: I love that, though, because we all want to do that, but we all have to keep up some sort of perception depending on our goals.

Joel: Right.

Apryl: I do feel similar to you with Tim, my husband – he's the one who carries the financial weight. Not that I'm not contributing anything, but I haven't worked for another organization since 2015. Even though I've had my own business, I've had a lot of flexibility in what I invest in and the type of work I do – I got to do an entire two-year improv program, compliments of The Cheerful Mind, which has been very important to the work I do now.

Apryl: I always look at fun things that create fun experiences, because I'm helping people live with more intention and play. I think if money were more of a factor, it would change the type of work I did. Because I'm a multipotentialite, I could easily jump back into a finance job – I like working with spreadsheets – or back into engineering, or look at operations-type roles. But none of that would light me up as much as the work I'm doing now, which is a little bit of everything.

Joel: It's interesting, because you were mentioning before this idea of part-time dad, part-time – I can't even look at it as part-time. I'm a full-time parent with a full-time business that has a whole bunch of different aspects, so I basically have to work full-time.

Joel: You know our friend James Todd, right?

Apryl: Oh, yeah – I was texting with him earlier.

Joel: I'm talking to him tomorrow. Tell him I said hi.

Apryl: He'd always say, “Apryl's got like fifteen jobs,” which is kind of true. That's why I always struggle with, “Oh my God, I'm doing too much” – I'll be in denial for five or six months, then I'll say, okay, I need to set some boundaries and some rules. That's really the thing I struggle with most, and it's the thing I help people with.

Apryl: But I feel like I can approach the type of work I do with so much more love, care, and passion because money isn't what's driving me. That's why I think there'll be an aspect of the work I do that I'll continue even once Tim has retired.

Apryl: But I really have to get realistic about the level of overwhelm and the workload I take on. I'm always trying to fight for balance between my personal and professional life, and I'm going to have to lean into that even more as my husband gets to lean into personal passions and his priorities shift away from the usual nine-to-five. I'm going to have to rewire my brain to do that too, because there's only so much time in the day.

Joel: I'm realizing you're one of the few friends I actually talk about business and work stuff with, because I haven't really had anything most people would conventionally call work for over a decade. On the input side, I don't have much to offer there. But because my life is so focused on other things, I don't often ask my friends to tell me about their business – how's your role shifting, what about that one client – and that's one thing I enjoy about you: you remind me that it's important, and that you're trying to do a number of things.

Joel: What I'm trying to say is that I really like who you are, and I'm really excited about who you can become. There's nothing wrong with what we're talking about now, or what we've talked about in the past, but I'm curious about fifty-year-old Apryl – retired or not, boys launched, maybe you're semi-retired, or Tim's retired, whatever it is. I'm not trying to live in the future, I'm trying to stay present, but I'm really excited to see what's next.

Joel: I have some thoughts, some little hints, but obviously it's up to you, not me.

Apryl: I have some bucket-list things I know I can't do right now that I'd seek out if I had more time, and I don't know what I'm waiting for – I should just do them now. But I think I'm also waiting for my kids to be less dependent on me.

Apryl: I also know there's going to be an emotional side to them leaving that I'll need to get over. But then you never know what happens after that – my parents are getting older, and they're doing great, but you just never know. So it's about deciding: do I jump into it now, or wait until later? It's always a hard decision to make.

Joel: Are you operating as if you'll live to be seventy, eighty, ninety years old? What time scale are you working with when you make your plans?

Apryl: I'm going to share something very morbid, but I think about dying almost every day.

Joel: Me too – it's one of my favorite things to think about.

Apryl: If I'm not going to be alive tomorrow, did I leave everything in order? The neuroticism of my brain goes, “Oh my gosh, if I die, is Tim going to be able to find the Amazon Subscribe and Save and cancel all the subscriptions?” I don't want him to get hit with a thousand-dollar bill because there are sixty things on rotation. I have these intricate little ways of setting things up so I can get the discounts but only order small amounts so I can cycle through – I don't like doing big orders, there's no automation, it's just that I have all these subscriptions in place so I can remember what I need. But there's no way Tim would know.

Apryl: I handle all the day-to-day stuff – the bills, the random things we buy – and I put time into that. So if I weren't alive tomorrow, how would he know? I feel like I spend a lot of my time trying to put processes in place so that if I weren't alive tomorrow, everybody I love and care about would be okay, and they wouldn't be burdened with everything on my to-do list.

Apryl: That's interesting, but I also think about whether I'm doing the things I actually want to do right now. Sometimes I torture myself with work I don't want to do – I've got a box of papers from the last six years I need to sort through and get rid of, but it's just sitting there.

Joel: Clearly you don't need to.

Apryl: I'd use a different word if it's been sitting there for six years. I also don't want to leave it for somebody else – I just want everything to be in order.

Joel: Okay, this is easy for me to say, right? Here I am swimming in free time, and you're over there saying you don't know how you even carved an hour out to talk to me today. Thank you, by the way – that was super cool of you to do, for you, for me, for us. I will always–

Apryl: Let me say this before you go into it.

Joel: Go for it.

Apryl: One of the things I admire most about you, and maybe envy a little, is that – out of maybe one or two other friends who do what you do – I'm always in awe that you keep up with the people you care about. I'm assuming, because you reach out to me every so often, and it's not random – well, it feels random, but I don't think it actually is. I don't know what your process is, and you might want to share it, because I'm so curious.

Joel: I'm happy to talk about it.

Apryl: So often I'll get a text from you, and every time my heart melts – I'm like, oh my gosh, somebody is thinking about me in the middle of the chaos of my life, just to tell me I'm an amazing human being. Some of them are just the heart emoji and the hug emoji.

Joel: Yeah, nothing else.

Apryl: Others are a little more catered, and I know it's not just copy and paste.

Apryl: I just don't feel like I can do that with more than a small subset of people, and I know you're super connected – I know you're a super connector. So if you're doing that with me, I don't know how many people you're doing it with.

Apryl: I mean, you should tell me so I can know how special I am. I'm just kidding.

Joel: You are super special, and there are other really special people in my life – that's why my life is so amazing. I don't say that to brag or boast, I just genuinely feel that way, and I'm so grateful for it. I know some of the most amazing humans that humanity has ever created, and I want them to know that constantly, consistently, even if it feels random to them.

Joel: Yes, I have systems and processes in place for various people and different types of relationships and communication mediums. For some people it's like, I'll only text back and forth five times before I say, okay, this texting needs to stop, we need to talk – I don't want it to be like we just send each other texts and never actually get on Zoom or the phone. So yes, I have certain triggers that kick things off.

Joel: But did you want to say more before I comment on death and dying? Because I want to.

Apryl: Yes.

Apryl: I'm one of those people who really struggles with remembering birthdays. I'll learn about one after the fact, because on the rare occasions I go on Facebook I'll see something and think, oh shoot, I need to put that in my calendar – because if you're not on my calendar, you're out of sight, out of mind. So I really appreciate that you have systems and processes in place to make me feel special. Even if you do that for four hundred people, I'm honored to be one of the four hundred – I'd love to take even an ounce of your process and figure out how to implement it in mine, because that's one process I haven't been able to master.

Apryl: But anyway, go on – talk about dying.

Joel: Okay, so the box below you that's been sitting there for six years waiting for your attention – you're probably familiar with Swedish death cleaning. Are you familiar with that concept?

Apryl: Maybe – you can tell everybody who doesn't know about it.

Joel: I don't even know how much I know about it myself. The core concept, as I understand it, is: clean up your stuff while you're still alive so that when you die, people don't have to deal with all the physical stuff you brought into the world and managed, or mismanaged. That's the basics of it from my understanding, and I'm sure there are people listening thinking, “Oh, Joel, you're so naive, you don't understand this at all.” That's probably true.

Joel: The emotional piece is the hardest part for a lot of people – it's really easy for me, because although I'm a very loving, compassionate person, I'm simultaneously unsentimental. I'm not sentimental about pretty much any object, digital or physical. So for me, that kind of stuff is easy – I tend not to accumulate, and if I do, letting go of it is very easy. There's generally no emotional attachment to it.

Joel: The other part, though, is the digital piece – your sixty Amazon Subscribe and Save items, or whatever you're juggling, where only you know your system, the timing, the calendar reminders, when you need to go in and change a dropdown, and how that ripples out.

Apryl: Yeah, all that.

Joel: I'm almost done with mine. I started about a year ago, and it's taken longer than I thought, but I've created a digital will – a digital estate plan for my online life. There are shopping-based websites, even though I don't do much shopping, and social media sites I haven't used in forever. My brother and sister-in-law are in charge; they have the documents, they know how to log in to everything, and they know what I'd like them to do with each account–

Joel: – assuming Melinda, my wife, doesn't have something to say. I've told them, if Melinda wants to do something different with this account or that one, that's fine, listen to her; otherwise, take over. The digital version of me will go on even after I'm physically dead, and I've more or less made plans to let people know, “Hey, I just died, and there's more than just the physical life that needs to be addressed – there's a whole bunch of digital stuff too.”

Joel: So again, if you ever want to talk through a system or process for your digital self and what happens after your biological self dies, there's a lot to think about and a lot to do. But maybe some of that angst – my word, not yours – that you're feeling around it wouldn't be that hard to remove from your life, and it would be a gift to everyone still alive whenever you happen to die.

Apryl: For sure. I think I spent a lot of time making things very difficult for myself that I'm now trying to fix. Here's an example: when Tim and I started dating, we both had our own personalized URLs – that was a fancy thing in the early 2000s, to have your own website. So I created all these catch-all accounts for anything I engaged with – Amazon at myurl.com, the bank at myurl.com, all of that.

Apryl: The companies I used to host all my URLs changed their processes over time, and last year I wanted to stop paying for email through one of them because it wasn't worth it anymore. I didn't realize I'd lose all these forwarded alias email addresses, and I frantically had to go through my brain trying to remember what email addresses I'd had, with no record of them. I still may not be getting emails I'm supposed to be getting because of that consolidation, but I finally said, you know what, I need to stop making everything so complicated. I feel like I dug myself a hole that I'm now trying to climb out of, trying to make things as simple as possible.

Apryl: That's one thing in the digital space, but there's also the sheer volume of just having time to sit and think. One thing I've been realizing about myself – and maybe this is just being a parent with kids still at home – is that I struggle to find time for deep, uninterrupted work. I think the theme for me is simplification, having fewer ties to certain things. Some of it is even just cleaning up that box, so I know there's no forgotten check sitting in there for hundreds of dollars.

Joel: You only had a hundred and eighty days from the issue date anyway, so it's too late.

Apryl: Even if it's there, it's too late.

Joel: What's simple for you? What's uncomplicated? What are the things you find a sense of ease with?

Apryl: Things I don't have to make decisions on. I think the biggest gift people can give me at this stage of my life is to make decisions for me – I've become very non-committal about things.

Apryl: When you met me, I was very much a planner – these are the things I'm going to do, okay, I'm coming to Minneapolis, let's meet at a Target and have a coffee, that was scheduled in. There was none of this, “Hey Joel, I'm going to be in town tomorrow, are you around?” I would never have done that, because I always planned ahead.

Apryl: Most of the trips I take now, I just don't plan. All the conferences I've gone to the last few years, I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do – I just want to plan less. I think I'm embracing that in this phase of life.

Apryl: When I don't have to make decisions, and somebody's able to gift me “I've got it handled, just show up” – I don't think I did that for most of my life. I've always been the person everybody leans on: “What are we doing next, Apryl? What are we doing next?” And I'd say, I have a plan, let's go. I think I'm tired of doing that.

Apryl: So in my social life I've been much more, “What do you guys want to do?” We have a boat we take out on our lake – not Lake Michigan, this small chain of lakes near our lake house – and I always want to invite people over. The first year, I'd try to find the right groups of people, up to fifteen on the boat, and curate the experience: this is the time, here's what to bring, all of it.

Apryl: We're in our sixth summer now. The weather in Chicago has been very bad this summer, so a lot of times it's had to be canceled, but now it's more like, “Are you free Saturday? Want to get on the boat?” It's very last minute. If people are coming into town I can plan around that, but otherwise, when I don't have anything on my calendar, life is better. I'm enjoying the space, for sure.

Joel: I just realized, as you were talking – I think of you as someone who's very goal-oriented. Is that still true?

Apryl: It is. I think my goals are shifting now to “what can I not do?” Which is weird, because when people ask how I'm doing, how's everything going, I'm not typically – the goals I'm chasing now are more around balance than they were in years past. I don't know if I told you, but I got a new tattoo on my right hip.

Apryl: It's all of my tattoos, for people who are listening and can't see this – I have four of my core values tattooed on my arms: fun, accomplishment, connection, and authenticity. I realized in my planning process last year – I run annual planning retreats every year – that I wrote a book about work-life balance, and I'd been resisting taking on the value of balance, partly because it's a trigger word for some people. For me, balance really means I can be very busy but still be at peace being busy – it's a very fine line to find that feeling.

Apryl: I'm definitely a dopamine chaser, and I have to actively force myself not to chase it, because I'll push myself to the verge of burnout if I do. I'm always fighting the overachiever version of myself, just to feel like I can get a good night's sleep and not wake up in go-go-go mode. I'm trying to do every task on my long daily to-do list in a flowy, chill way, because there's always going to be spillover into tomorrow – what can I actually do today and feel good about, without feeling like I wasted the day?

Apryl: I got the tattoo about two months ago – it's August now, and I got it in June. It's an image of a woman doing an arabesque pose, very graceful – a nod to my cheerleader roots. She's on one leg, leg stretched back, wearing a spunky leather bodice and gym shoes, and she's balancing on the word “balance” – specifically on the second A, which doubles as the symbol Delta, meaning change in mathematics.

Apryl: I've always said balance looks different for everyone – you have to create your own definition, and it evolves as you grow and as situations change. She's balancing on tiptoe in her cute little sneakers on that letter, and it's a daily reminder that I don't like how I feel when I'm in go-go-go mode all the time. I want to be more present in the moment, but I still want to accomplish things – I also need to prioritize rest.

Apryl: It represents who I am – I'm a high achiever, I like to work hard and play hard, I like math and science, I like performance in theater and music. It shows all those different facets of me, but it also reminds me to stay grounded in what matters most. So at least in this phase of my life, it's about how I balance being an amazing mom with putting out quality work I'm passionate about, because I have so many interests, as all multipotentialites do.

Apryl: I'll say that this year in particular is probably the most financially successful year I've had with The Cheerful Mind since 2015 – the most profitable year yet. So it's like, great, I've got the financial stability, but now I have to rebalance how much work I'm putting out, and make sure everything stays feeling as good as it is without letting my personal life feel depleted.

Apryl: I don't know how we got there, but that's the answer to whatever you asked me at some point.

Joel: I have two observations. One – I'm proud that you still have a book ten years later that you're proud of, that you can say is still worthwhile. I contrast that with the book I wrote twelve years ago, which I won't even name because I'm embarrassed by it. I removed it from sale everywhere on the internet except Barnes and Noble – I can't figure out how to get it off there. I got an email from them two days ago: “Joel, we're sending you three dollars and twenty-four cents.” Like, oh, cool, somebody in the last decade bought my book.

Joel: I'm a little embarrassed by what I used to create and what I used to do. And I'm really happy that even as you've evolved, there are things you can look back on and say, “That was really cool, I'm glad I did that.”

Apryl: Now I want to know what this book is, because I feel like you've never even talked about it.

Joel: It's called Experience Curating. It's about spreadsheets and an organizational framework for figuring out the key moments in your life and how to make them valuable to future-you and everybody else – and I'm not even reading off the back cover, I'm doing that on purpose.

Apryl: Why are you embarrassed about it?

Joel: There are two reasons. The first is that the book represents my ego – I wrote it in the last half of 2013 with the goal of being some kind of fancy-pants author, because at that point in my entrepreneurial life that was the template: write a book, become a public speaker, then be a professional fancy pants. I thought, cool, I could probably do that. The book was so painful to write – I'm not a writer, I don't like writing, and the fact that I subjected myself and other people to a book that wasn't very good – a couple of people said, “Yeah, that's cool, I learned something,” but I could probably count on one hand how many people actually took action based on reading Experience Curating.

Joel: It was essentially wasted, misplaced time, when I could have been doing things I was good at, that were fulfilling for me and useful to other people. Instead my ego said, write a book, be a public speaker – and I did. I went to South by Southwest in 2015 and gave a talk about the book, and the audience was so bored, Apryl. I was up there trying to bring all this pizzazz – “I will transfer my enthusiasm for curating and spreadsheets to you now, through the power of public speaking” – and everybody was sitting back with their arms crossed like, whatever, dude, I don't have anywhere better to be, which is the only reason I'm still sitting here listening to you talk.

Apryl: I don't know about that. It's funny, because I do feel like when people want to write books, there's that aspect of “I have something important to say, and I want to get it out on paper.” We all know books are a great vehicle for the other things that come with being a content creator in business.

Apryl: I also feel like the book process for me was grueling. My process was difficult because I wasn't just trying to write a book – I was trying to learn how to be a life coach, trying to start a business, trying to figure out who my identity was going to be after having worked in so many different industries. There was a lot going on that made the process very difficult. And I'm an engineer – I'm not an author or a writer either, even though I do enjoy some aspects of writing. But I get it.

Joel: But sometimes I also feel like we have to go through that in order to make the meaningful choices we need to make later in life, right?

Apryl: Fair. I grapple with the idea of whether to write another book. This whole – I kind of shifted into podcast format because I do like talking. The editing piece is something I have to navigate, because it plays into my perfectionist tendencies a little too much.

Joel: That's been a challenge, but I'm glad you handed that off to someone else – because I still edit this show.

Apryl: No, I still edit my podcast, that's fine – it's the social media I let go of.

Joel: Oh, got it.

Apryl: I let go of one thing. But the aspect of the podcast – I'm really, really proud of what I'm putting out. The entire concept was really based on this idea: could I tell people stories of accomplishment? Because I don't need to talk about myself anymore, and it's not all about me, right? My flavor of accomplishment is very different from everybody else's, but can we learn from each other? That's the next legacy I want to leave behind, because storytelling is something you can't replace with AI.

Apryl: What we need more than ever in the age of our technology is that connection – can we tell a story so unique to somebody that it creates a wealth of learning for generations to come? That's kind of what I want to do. But I'm definitely grappling with the idea of going through the grueling process of editing a book, putting it together, and promoting it – that's the worst part of it all. Is it even worth it? Can I just put something out that I'm super passionate about, talk about it, but do it in a way that feels comfortable to me, without tying myself to the outcome?

Apryl: That's part of what I feel accomplishment is, right – can you enjoy the journey, and know you're making choices about the outcome from the inside, and not based on what everybody else expects of you? So those are the answers I'm trying to gather in this phase of my life.

Joel: Well, the observation I was going to make a few minutes ago, I'm feeling even more acutely now: your talking-to-smiling ratio is perhaps higher than any other person I know. You seem like you're constantly on the verge of a grin, even when you're deep or reflective, even when you're self-critical – the corners of your mouth are just ever so slightly tipping up. I love that energy you're giving, and I hope you give it in other places and times, because it's one of the reasons I enjoy you so much. I've never thought about the concept of a smiling-to-talking ratio before, but you're on the cusp of positive vibes or a grin almost all the time, and I really like that about you.

Apryl: Thank you. It's really hard not to just say, “No, you're just–”

Joel: You're smiling while you're doing that.

Apryl: I know. Not to say I don't have my bad days, of course.

Apryl: We can have an offline conversation about all of that.

Joel: We're not happiness robots.

Apryl: I would love to see if I still have a smile-to-talk ratio in those moments – we'll test that out sometime. I think it would be one of those smiles where – I don't know what the word is – I'm kind of being sarcastic, like, “Oh yeah, but I love it, I love it so much,” and I'm still smiling even though I'm in pain or something. I thought it would be interesting.

Joel: Oh, man, I want to talk about more, but we probably shouldn't, because then I'm going to take you into time you don't have right now. You can always come back and we can do a Surprise Me, Joel version two down the road, after you've done a number of episodes and let other people share their amazing stuff too.

Joel: I don't mind – I had back-to-back episodes with my buddy Justin Baker, and I'm only eight episodes into this at the moment. There's no rule that says I can't – this is my podcast, I get to do whatever the heck I want, talk with whomever I want, whenever I want, as often as I want, for as long as we both have available.

Apryl: Well, pencil me in.

Joel: We can do a check-in at some point and see how things are going.

Joel: But is there anything floating around that we should capture right now, in the next few minutes, before I say, “Now, Apryl, please tell us where we can find your amazing self, online or offline”?

Apryl: Let's recap all the different topics we discussed. At the very beginning – I can't even remember – I know we talked about death, we talked about balance, we talked about your awesome process for following up with people, and a book you don't want people to read.

Joel: This is all stuff that I talked about. What about the stuff that you talked about?

Apryl: What did I talk about? You were listening – I was just blabbing. I'll tell you, when I do public speaking, a lot of times I have a framework of what I'm going to say, but I black out – so that may have happened during this conversation too.

Joel: I remember you telling stories about your evolution. We started with the twelve different things you've either started, continued, or expanded into in 2026 – leaning into work, business, and retirement.

Apryl: Uh-huh.

Joel: And then I may have blacked out a little bit too – who knows what happened.

Apryl: Aren't those the best conversations sometimes – the ones that are just so in flow you don't even know? We're going to have to both listen back to this episode.

Joel: Well, I'll be editing this, so it'll be really easy for me to do. And then you'll get the benefit after my five hours of overly meticulous work.

Apryl: I hear you on the editing.

Joel: I'll say one more thing – the tools we have available now. I started podcasting in 2012, and I would have killed for some of the things I can do now, fourteen years ago.

Apryl: Yeah.

Joel: Even with the tools I have – Auphonic is one of them, where I upload it and it asks, do you want to automatically remove silences, coughs, filler words, insert silences? And I'm like, cool, cool, cool – and then it auto-levels and normalizes the volume. But I listen back and go, no, no, no, hold on, Auphonic – there was that one point where Apryl laughed, and it was so delightful, but you cut off the first half-second of it. It hit your algorithm. Do not do that. Do not deprive the world of Apryl's half-second laugh – put that back. That's the kind of thing I'm doing when I could just handcraft it like I used to.

Joel: I think, you know what, for our episode, that's what I'm going to do – this is going to be a handcrafted episode, where I'm not going to lean on all these delightful tool sets. I'm just going to do it the Joel Zaslofsky way, fully, and own being the kind of anal, meticulous guy that I am. Hopefully that'll show up in the post-production for everyone.

Apryl: I love it. I'm making more work for you.

Joel: No, I made that for myself.

Apryl: All right, well, I can't wait to hear it.

Joel: And I hope everybody who's listened had so much fun with all the random tangents we went through today.

Apryl: Yes.

Joel: Okay, so when people want more from you, where are they going – online or offline?

Apryl: Online. I'm going to share my social media handles and all that. You can find me at The Cheerful Mind – mostly on LinkedIn or Instagram, Instagram is my number-one platform. I've been putting out some fun content, sharing things about my life and the amazing things I'm doing, as an opportunity to try to be more visible, because I know I'm doing a lot of amazing things and I struggle with sharing them. Can I get a hallelujah? I've been really proud of what I've been putting out.

Apryl: My marketing partner, Bianca, is amazing – it couldn't be a better partnership, we totally get each other, we have the same type of energy and enthusiasm, and she has the skills I don't have time for. I'd love for people to follow me on social media – that's where I've been pouring my heart and soul. I do have a website that needs an update, but if you want to check it out, it's thecheerfulmind.com. And if you're in the Chicago area, that's where I live, so come hang out – I'll take you out on my boat, after we get to know each other a little bit.

Joel: Right – prerequisites for that invitation.

Apryl: Yes. Let's just make sure we can have a fun, surprise conversation first. I love all different types of people, so – you can find me on the interwebs, and we can engage in conversation.

Joel: Apryl, this was delightful, friend. Thank you for doing this with me.

Apryl: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy we had the time to do this.

Apryl: I really, truly, truly needed it for my soul.